Ryan Holler
(1145 )
Moderator
Artist Info
| 4:12:00 PM Thursday, April 12, 2007
Actually, Ian, we have discussed the on-court stuff as thoroughly as the off-court. Your arguement is good, but there's still time for Kobe to improve the on-court stuff. The way the off-court points came into the discussion is by way of people's human nature not being able to separate their personal likes and dislikes from the equation. And that's unavoidable since Michaeal's and Kobe's careers didn't overlap during their primes. All we can rely on now is personal opinions, combined with stats. And as I said earlier, Kobe still has time to break most of Michael's personal records. |
stephen christian
(402 )
Artist Info
| 5:01:00 PM Thursday, April 12, 2007
it's always going to be tough comparing athletes of different eras, considering the talent levels in the sports world evolve. same thing with the whole running back debate. different worlds. (cough~barry sanders~cough) |
reggie wilson
(41)
| 9:48:00 PM Thursday, April 12, 2007
I think Jordan was in his prime somewhere between 1993-1996. I don't know if Kobe is in his prime. We can not know for sure until Kobe retires and we get to see where he was at his best and when he started to decline. For the record I also think Jordan is better than Kobe, my point is just always seems Kobe personal life always comes into play when we are talking about basketball. |
reggie wilson
(41)
| 9:54:00 PM Thursday, April 12, 2007
While agree with some of the things the article points out are true, but I think article is written with a serious Jordan bias. It isn't objective in any way. I think the person who wrote the article knows this because the first thing they start the article off with is "I'm a huge Kobe fan." |
Ryan Holler
(1145)
Moderator
Artist Info
| 10:04:00 PM Thursday, April 12, 2007
I remember Michael not being so well-liked early on in his career. It was mostly old-timers who saw him as a ball-hog. Michael slowly won those people over. Some still didn't like him, but everyone grew to respect him. That's what's unfortunate about KB. No matter how good he becomes on the court, many will never respect him. |
Luvell Stepter
(163 )
Artist Info
| 1:54:00 AM Friday, April 13, 2007
Well not to say that I am bias living here in chicago and growing up with the bulls all my life. a think there is some major diffrences both on and off the court that set them apart.
Skill wise: MJ took things from Doc and other greats and evolved them to even higher levels of difficulty. and breaking and shattering records along the way, but what sets him apart greatly in which I think this whole discussion is about is that MJ did it with his own style... the baggy shorts: the tounge: the Air Jordans: the bald head: the marketable smile: the abilty to make his weekest points unoticable both on and off the court. To make it all short MJ did it with class... He did it the MJ way and no other.
Michael even said it himself that records are made to be broken. and that sure is true in Kobe's case. In one hand you can break them with a style all your own. Or break them with people saying that you looked like Mike when you did that or etc.
Lastly off the court Michael is worldwide...note(Not saying Kobe isnt) but to have your shoes still sell out that are twenty years old when they rerelease and to have some of the biggest people with egos in the league who want to make there own name and identify themselves but still want to just were your shoe because of the legacy that you left...to me that says something. Kobe is good dont get me wrong but Michael made a legacy in the way he played the game. He did it his way. |
UE K
(2)
| 8:57:00 AM Friday, April 13, 2007
A very fair article, good points made for both sides. I think what needs to be looked at is the difference of basketball between the two eras. A much more defensive mindset back in Jordan's earlier day, nowadays with Kobe, a much more guard dominated, scoring game. For MJ to drop 63, against the Celtics, against the greats of Mchale, bird, Dennis Johnson, in the Boston Garden nonetheless, was truly a God-like effort.
But we must also concentrate on the impact that MJ had on people at the time. In a small village tucked away in China, people knew of the MJ phenomenon. MJ was a revelation. He defined an era in our culture, he was the athlete of that time.
And I think it's fair to say, the greatest athelete of all-time. |
reggie wilson
(41)
| 11:26:00 AM Friday, April 13, 2007
I guess this argument turned into who has had more of a cultural impact because the bagging shorts, Air Jordans, bald heads, villages in China who know about Jordan, etc, to me sounds like what he hid for pop culture. Jordan wins hands down.
But I think once you take away all the admiration people have for Jordan, the great Nike commercials, the shoes, the hype, etc Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant are not that far off in basketball skills. If you think otherwise you do not know basketball. There is not one basketball skill that Jordan has that is vastly better than Kobe.
|
Ed
(100 )
Artist Info
| 12:39:00 PM Friday, April 13, 2007
I can think of 2. Jordan's defense is vastly better than Kobe's. He can change a game defensively and opponents have to be aware where he is on D at all time. He locks his man down, then help down low to help block blind side on big men, and get in the passing lanes for steal + break away dunks. People forget how many breakaway dunks Jordan get on those steals, that's why we get all these posters we have today!
When Kobe dropped 81, Jordan was irked, not by Kobe's scoring but by the defense displayed. He said if he was guarding Kobe, he'd have fouled out before he let anyone score 81 on him. What was Kobe's reaction when Arenas got 60 on him? |
Ed
(100)
Artist Info
| 12:42:00 PM Friday, April 13, 2007
The other thing is that Jordan is vastly better at making players around him better. We know of how many scrubs that has stepped up for the Bulls? And then disappears when they no longer play with him. How many game winning passes and situations were set up by Jordan? This skillset is harder to quantify but to anyone with good basketball knowledge - very obvious.
I believe these 2points speak for themselves on the basketball court. If you carefully look at game films for both players, most (I'd say 90%) of the people would agree. |
ade otabor
(411)
Artist Info
| 7:09:00 PM Saturday, April 14, 2007
"But let's not create the illusion that media coverage during the Bulls' championship runs was so much different that it is today..."
"All they had to do was get over the personal crap and play ball. But it didn't happen. The team broke up and both of them acted like they didn't care..."
i disagree on both points, the mj & the bulls did not imo so much as manage their image, as it was really that the media was less cynical and critical then, think about it...as for a reconciliation between kb & shaq; it does not parallel with anything that might have transpired with the bulls behind the scenes. for one these guys had always taken shots at one another in the media (even before kobe broke the "code" of the basketball faternity), so there had alaways been some lingering animosity. secondly, this was no longer the dynamic duo of batman & robin but more like superman and batman (and those 2 never really get along!) while batman trains and revamps his arsenal every offseason, superman routinely takes the offseason as a sabbatical and shows up to work bloated and out of shape, relying of his sheer kryptoninan awesomeness to get the job done. each side overvalued their own contribution, even so i believe losing the finals like they did was the what did it for both parties; they were no longer willing to put up with each other... |
anthony singletary
(2)
| 7:20:00 PM Saturday, April 14, 2007
OK folks here's the bottom line.I love mike just as much as anyone else but,he's finished!It's time for Kobe to shine!Mike does some things better than Kobe and Kobe does some things better than Mike.If you ask me it's like watching the same person.Everyone says he thinks he's Jordan because he plays the same way.Well who should he want to play like Dennis Rodman? We all know Mike could do no wrong in the media's eyes but nobody ever brings up how he was scoring a lot of points for nothing in the beginning of his career or how he had a incredible cast around him when he started winning.My point is both of these dudes are great and this argument is pointless. People even have the nerve to even bring up these guys personal lifes when 90% of you just got finished doing something you had no business doing.Lets be real folks these guys get paid to play ball not to be superhuman!They both have flaws on and off the court. |
ade otabor
(411)
Artist Info
| 7:24:00 PM Saturday, April 14, 2007
"I can think of 2. Jordan's defense is vastly better than Kobe's. He can change a game defensively and opponents have to be aware where he is on D at all time."
"The other thing is that Jordan is vastly better at making players around him better. We know of how many scrubs that has stepped up for the Bulls? And then disappears when they no longer play with him. How many game winning passes and situations were set up by Jordan? This skillset is harder to quantify but to anyone with good basketball knowledge - very obvious."
you cannot be serious...i think you have vastly overrated mike on both counts. no doubt mj was game on both ends, but come'on now...and kobe is no slouch on d.
as for this notion of "making players better" what does that really mean? and how come he did not do this when he came back with the wizards? no, what the bulls had were 2 superstars and role players who KNEW THEIR ROLES. i rarely use the word hate but i HATE the whole "makes teammates better" argument in player a vs. player b discussions. it is a nonsensical rationale, not only because it is unquantifiable but also because it assumes that the player alone is the sole catalyst when it is actually a myriad of factors... |
Ed
(100)
Artist Info
| 8:03:00 PM Saturday, April 14, 2007
ade. i never said kobe is a slouch on D, but to say i overrated MJ on D is absurd. he was a defensive player of the year, as a guard who SCORES. with the exception of gary payton and alvin robertson, no guard has won the award... and jordan's primary role on offense was much greater than both of those. what makes MJ better than Larry or Magic? First word out of Jordan's mouth is defense. Why do you think the bball community made such a big hoopla about Iverson's crossover on Jordan? Because until that play, nobody has ever showned up MJ one on one... and that was already a point in Jordan's career where he wasn't nearly as good a defensive player as he was earlier in thi career (pre-baseball). Entire career - one true defensive lapse when he tried to D someone up. Kobe? Arenas 60? KObe whined about Gil not having a conscience. Please stop stating your opinions and start giving people facts and examples. |
Ed
(100)
Artist Info
| 8:11:00 PM Saturday, April 14, 2007
you think making player better is unquantifiable? only if you are not very knowledgable about basketball. So all the time that people praise Bird & Magic on how they make their teammates better is all baloney? Yes it is a myriad of factors - just like the ability to score 81 pts in a game. The conditions have to be right for that to happen. However, in the long run, when you average it out, it is obvious that Kobe is a great scorer. And in the long run, it is obvious that Magic, Bird & Jordan made their teammates better. In regards to your example about why he didn't make the wizards better... he was 40 years old. If he was Jordan of 91-98, he would've made them better. Actually, an argument can be made he DID make them better. Ask RIP, he has nothing but praises for Jordan and how he helped his game. The truth of the matter is, Jordan hit 50 points as a 40 yr old Wizards. What does that say about today's game (I thought today's athletes are faster and jump higher and taller and stronger)? If an old Jordan can light up a modern day team (still w/out the hand checking rule I should add), what does that say about today's competition? Is Kobe's feat really that great in comparison? Jordan did it on basically no 3's and dunks but almost all jump shots. |
ade otabor
(411)
Artist Info
| 11:45:00 PM Saturday, April 14, 2007
"Because until that play, nobody has ever showned up MJ one on one..."
again i say, be serious...and i never said he was overrated as a defensive player, i said YOU overrated him...you overstate the argument, yes jordan was a very, good defensive player (i recall many times scottie [and later ron harper] would routinely guard the other teams top scorer to free jordan on the offensive end...) but to say he was NEVER shown up befor ethat play..do you remember his duels with 'nique?
as to the "makes teammates better" thing you bring up bird and magic? aren't these teams with multiple hof'ers? these are guys that played with an excellent supporting cast; magic had worthy & jabbar. bird had dennis johnson, mchale, and parish! hardly teams lacking for talent...the fact is, it is easier to win with good/great players, the margin of error become greater (ask allen iverson, lb did you wrong bubba chuck!). tell me that those guys did not shoot the ball as much, or that they are better passers, even that they made more effort to get teammates involved, you can at least debate those points...on the other hand how can you really gauge to what extent anyone of those guys "made their teammates better"
"he was 40 years old. If he was Jordan of 91-98, he would've made them better. Actually, an argument can be made he DID make them better"
before mike got scottie and horace, he was kobe, keep that in mind(the jordan syndrome anyone?)...and i would like to hear/read the case for jordan making that wizards team (of which none of those players are with the organization anymore...) better. in fact (no disrespect to mj) players seemingly regressed in their development with his arrival.
"Ask RIP, he has nothing but praises for Jordan and how he helped his game."
who does not? (beside kwame brown!) you could wander the earth for many moons, before finding one to criticize mjj... |
reggie wilson
(41)
| 1:52:00 AM Sunday, April 15, 2007
Abe you bring up some good points. Ed are you serious to think that Jordan only had one defensive lapse in his entire career. That has to be one of the dumbest things I ever heard. I can't not even take what you say serious anymore. What about the time John Starks dunked on him and two other bulls during the playoffs.
Kobe can not play D like he use to because he carries so much of the burden. Jordan had the benefit of having Pippen on his team who could guard the best offensive player on the opposite team for 3 quarters. Kobe doesn't have that luxury. When Kobe D started to decline was when Shaq left. Shaq did not defend a guard, but Kobe did not have to worry about scoring 65 points for his team to barely win. Now Kobe has to pick and choose his spots on D because he needs to conserve energy.
With that being said I still think Jordan is a better defender. He is not vastly better. Vastly better would be like comparing Kobe's defense to Steve Nash's defense. |
Ian Gale
(382)
Artist Info
| 1:49:00 PM Sunday, April 15, 2007
Yo Ade what's good bruh? Hit me up on myspace mang.. |
Ed
(100)
Artist Info
| 5:37:00 PM Monday, April 16, 2007
obviously i didn't mean ONE defensive lapse. i said one TRUE defensive lapse where he was shown up. there are plenty of people who scored on MJ. you can't be serious if you think I meant one.
on the contrary, you have no problem in ade's assertion that there's no such thing as 'making teammates better'? that is the most absurd thing i've ever heard in my life. and apparently, every other sports writer and so called 'expert' is wrong too. by that same argument, steve nash and john stockton aren't that great of passers, they have high assists only because marion, stat, karl malone are good @ finishing baskets and scoring. i guess it's the chicken & egg problem isn't it? thanks for enlightening us with that ade. |
Ed
(100)
Artist Info
| 5:42:00 PM Monday, April 16, 2007
and please stop bring up the 40 yr old jordan as a wizard to compare with kobe in his prime. when i said best Defensive player ever, it means jordan in his prime. back before Pippen was used to shut down best offensive players on the other team. like u said, the reason for that is to conserve jordan's energy. but there was a time when jordan was younger where he could shut down any player period. kobe of this era included.
let the stats do the talking. jordan has 9 all-nba first teams including 1 DPOY, kobe has 3 and 0 DPOY. that is VASTLY better. period. i don't mind u offering opinions different from mine, just please back it up with facts. |
ade otabor
(411)
Artist Info
| 10:12:00 PM Monday, April 16, 2007
what up ian, no doubt i will hit you on email...
...i do what i can to enlighten the masses...again you confuse the argument nash & stockton are great passers but...there is definitely something to be said for having guys on you side that can make shots and finish and/or make plays consistently. and since you brought up nash, who is a perfect example of a good player being placed in a system that allows him to flourish. think about his: when nash was a maverick, those experts and sports writers were not speaking of him in that light, it was d'antoni's high octane offensive philosophy and personnel of the suns that had a LARGE role in that. some perspective for you: both pgs that preceded him were among the league leader in assists...would gary payton be the player he was, had he not had a shawn kemp and detlef schrempt to pass the ball to?
like i said, i am not arguing that kobe is better, only that he could potentially eclipse mike and is well on his way to that trajectory... |
ade otabor
(411)
Artist Info
| 10:14:00 PM Monday, April 16, 2007
and that it seems like people have made jordan's exploits to mythological heights (albeits that some of them are!) |
reggie wilson
(41)
| 2:50:00 PM Tuesday, April 17, 2007
I agree you would think MJ had Wilts individual stats and Russel team awards. I still find that hard to believe that MJ had one true defensive lapse. Maybe if Jordan would have played in this generation he would have been crossed up more, dunked on more, and got scored more. Plus this whole generation is more about showing someone up. They didn't focus on dunking on or crossing players up like they do know. That cared more about winning.
|
meka dizzo
(55)
Artist Info
| 4:07:00 PM Tuesday, April 17, 2007
Just adding my 2 cents.....
1.Kobe like Mike must make his team mates better
2. if mike had a team down 3-1 in a 7 gm series u best believe he's bustin at least 45 or more in the remaining games. and the series would end in 5.
3. stop makin every move like you're tryin 2 make sc.
4. score more in the 4th q when the team needs u most ala mike and most recently wade and lbj.
5. when 4 more rings. in order 4 mike to be considered the greatest in the modern era he knew he had to have more rings than magic so kobe good luck u might not get one. |
Rich Benares
(644 )
| 9:04:00 PM Tuesday, April 17, 2007
Lets put this debate to rest.. I am better than BOTH MJ and Kobe..
At Drawing..
End of story..
Thanks, Bye! |
free poker
(1)
| 10:26:00 AM Thursday, April 26, 2007
anybody try the kobe zoom II yet? I bought a pair, they feel pretty good. wondering if we can get a review on this awesome site. |
Ed
(100)
Artist Info
| 5:44:00 PM Thursday, April 26, 2007
I don't wanna add fuel to the fire, but if you guys look at the way Kobe has played in the playoffs, you will notice the very obvious separation between him and Michael Jordan. Some of the shots he has taken at end of Game 1 just made me cringe every time I looked at it. I can't even imagine the thoughts going through his teammates' heads. Times are tough but the series still has a way to go. It will be interesting to see how Kobe rebounds and if his leadership can calm down the team and carry them to push the Series longer. |
Aron Tecleab
(42)
| 11:18:00 PM Monday, April 30, 2007
Call me biased, but I'll always think that Jordan is better than Kobe, just for the simple fact that Jordan signed a picture for my dad when he was a custodian at Reunion Arena. |
johnny szabo
(890)
Artist Info
| 3:24:00 PM Wednesday, June 13, 2007
Great topic ya'll! |
Andrew Dapore
(6)
| 11:49:00 PM Wednesday, June 13, 2007
First off I don't really believe in curses like that but it's interesting to think about. I think the difference between those JB guys listed above and MJ himself is that, with the exception of a few (Kidd, Melo and Jeter), they all seem to be somewhat content with what they have accomplished. What I mean is that MJ always had that overwhelming desire and passion to be better. He didn't care if he was already the best he wanted to be better. He wasn't satisfied with one championship so he won five more. I don't see some of those guys above as wanting to continue to push themselves to that level (guys like Moss, Miles and T.O.). That's what I think has happened to some of them and I think that one reason that MJ is so widely accepted and appreciated as being one of the alltime greats is because of that overwhelming drive for excellence and his relentless will to never give up on a fight. That determinatino and desire is what makes the great players great and allows them to seperate themselves from the others.
With that said I don't think that there is anyone in the league that can be compared to him yet. Kobe doesn't seem to show the effort to make his teammates work harder (he tries to do it himself), Wade and LeBron both lack some of the experience that is needed to get them to that level (and LeBron needs to keep developing his shooting). Like Ade said below MJ during rhe bulls runs always had a great supporting cast and Kobe and LeBron definitely don't have that, yet. Just some food for thought. |
Ryan Holler
(1145)
Moderator
Artist Info
| 12:57:00 AM Thursday, June 14, 2007
Andrew, did you mean to post this here? ^^ It seems like it's a better comment for thread titled, "The Gift or The Curse", especially the first paragraph. I suggest you copy it over to that thread. |
Andrew Dapore
(6)
| 1:11:00 AM Thursday, June 14, 2007
Thanks Ryan, I meant to post it in the other thread.
For this thread topic I think that MJ is still better than Kobe up to this point in his career for the fact as I had said that he seemed to will his other teammates to become better(granted some were already very good) where as I don't see Kobe pushing his teammates that way. I could be biased because I live on the east coast and don't get many Lakers' games televised, but I just don't see Kobe forcing the rest of his teammates to strive for perfection and get better the way that Jordan did. |
Joseph Dumary
(9)
Artist Info
| 5:09:00 AM Thursday, June 14, 2007
......I think Kobe is better..I can't explain but that's real...and I'm not a big fan of Bryant..
Good topic! |
Ryan Holler
(1145)
Moderator
Artist Info
| 9:53:00 AM Thursday, June 14, 2007
Kobe might be better at some things. And he even might end up with 6 or more rings (not that that's the only measure). But he's always going to have a hard time winning his due share of votes in this arguement, simply because of his persona. His meltdown a couple weeks ago demanding to be traded is just another episode in the whacky world he's created with himself and the media and thereby with us.
If Mike ever had meltdowns like that, he sure didn't call talk radio shows or other media outlets to broadcast it.
(At this point Kobe apologists commence to bash Ryan Holler.) |
johnny szabo
(890)
Artist Info
| 2:27:00 PM Thursday, June 14, 2007
IS it this way for only me, or everyone, but I click on Jordan Brand the gift or the curse, and the chat part is for Kobe vs Jordan?? |
Andrew Dapore
(6)
| 11:20:00 PM Thursday, June 14, 2007
Johnny I had the same thing happen on my computer with the threads.
Ryan- I agree with you. I don't care for Kobe's personality, but I think that ultimately has something to do with people's success not only in sports but in life too. I have been on several teams where the whole team was brought down by one or two guys who didn't really share the same desire to fit in with everyone else or the same ideas about how the team was working and it brought everyone down. That never seemed to be the case with the Bulls because MJ wouldn't let it happen, but the Lakers... |
Peter Laclavik
(1)
| 9:54:00 AM Monday, September 17, 2007
who is? who was? who will be? Kobe is really good player, but he doesn`t have charisma and don`t know how to win games with team. May be he is better 1on1 but basket is about 5on5, and Mike was doing basketball players around him better, kobe don`t know how to do it ...
Mike is better i think ... |
Brian Lee
(37)
| 12:30:00 PM Tuesday, September 18, 2007
Like most the guys here, I'm a Jordan fan.. That being said, I actually liked Kobe when he first got into the NBA. Namely right after he did the under the leg dunk during the dunk contest, and right after he landed, he started taunting.. I went "Holy crap! What a cocky guy! I love this guy!".. even had the first Kobe from Adidas.. loved it...Kobe was fine for the 1st few years, but then came the drama.
Skill wise, I would still pick MJ. One thing that I never see on Kobe's highlights.. gracefulness.. Yeah sure, the ball still went in..but the way Jordan did it (even that circus shot where he did a reverse lay-up with one hand holding the other one to adjust the power) was just graceful..
From a mental perspective, Jordan is more in control, I hardly see him getting intimidated (hah) or lost his temper that he blew the game. Kobe would get pissed off, shoot some bad shoots, miss them all.. and keep shooting again. I remembered watching the Lakers game a few years back.. and all I can say was "ur throwing bricks! PASS the ball!".
I haven't been following the games recently,mainly due to the fact that I'm in a soccer heaven,where all the sport channels show soccer games all the time >_< But when I do see Kobe play, it was as if he was reluctant to pass the ball.. felt like he didn't have confidence in the guy next to him to put the ball in..especially on crunch time.. I do remember Jordan letting go of the ball for the winning shot.. to Paxton... Kerr..
On a 1 on 1 game, both players at their prime, I think Jordan will only need to pull a few fancy moves, taunt Kobe, and win the game. Jordan thrived on being challenged, Kobe gets emotional and will try to rule the universe |
Ed Matthews
(8)
Artist Info
| 10:12:00 PM Tuesday, April 08, 2008
Brian I agree but Jordan in all his greatness never dropped 80 or picked up 50 in consecutive nights. Also Kobe doesn't have Shaq and is still doing his thing (80pts). Jordan had Rodman and Pippen with him the whole time. Comparing these two is like Bill Russel vs. Chamberlin or Tom Brady vs. Peyton Manning.
|
Ed
(100)
Artist Info
| 1:51:00 PM Wednesday, April 09, 2008
Ed M,
Your statements are either flat out wrong or stated in a way that isn't truely correct. First of all, Jordan DID pickup 50 in consecutive nights. In fact, Michael Jordan scored 50 or more points in three consecutive games in April 1987: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-6bTscctJY
Then you stated after Kobe doesn't have Shaq - he's still doing his thing (80pts) as if he's done 80pts before that - he hadn't.
Then you stated Jordan had Rodman & Pippen with him the WHOLE time, he hadn't. Only for the last 3 championship 95-98, did he have them both.
Jordan vs Kobe is not Russell vs Wilt. Kobe has 0 MVPs, 0 Finals MVP, 0 seasons he was the best player on a championship team. In another words, how can you compare Kobe to the Greatest Player of All Times when he hasn't even been the best player in a SINGLE nba season.
And just in case you are wondering about this season, Chris Paul has had a better season than Kobe, although I concede Kobe is likely to win it this year for the same reason Karl Malone won it over Jordan previously. |
Ed Matthews
(8)
Artist Info
| 9:17:00 PM Wednesday, April 09, 2008
Thinking it over your right . I respect Jordan is the best ever to pick up a ball. If both players could play a 1 on 1 in thier prime I feel Kobe comes out on top. And as for CP he is starting to work into his prime with an amazing statistical season (& what he means to the hornets). Were as Kobe is starting on his way out. |
Ed Matthews
(8)
Artist Info
| 9:21:00 PM Wednesday, April 09, 2008
By the way I hate Kobe he's a egotistical player never elevating the team the way Jordan did. You have to see past the rape charges and tuants and see a player who's put up some numbers in his day. |
John Deal
(347)
Artist Info
| 8:14:00 PM Thursday, April 10, 2008
Jordan is better. End of discussion |
stephen christian
(402)
Artist Info
| 12:02:00 AM Friday, April 11, 2008
kobe is the best player within a crop of some of the best players ever to play. the athleticism now is crazy.
jordan is jordan. he was amazing. easily the best when he played. and probably at the right place at the right time with the bulls teams.
you can't compare them head to head. it will always be a debate. they'll never play eachother in their primes.
it's actually kind of ridiculous to debate. and i like kobe because most people outright hate him.
and yeah, word to cp3. too fun to watch, man... |
Titus Ares
(101)
Artist Info
| 2:08:00 PM Friday, April 11, 2008
"kobe is the best player within a crop of some of the best players ever to play. the athleticism now is crazy."
wait, so this crop of players was better than the crop MJ played with? i don't think you remember who MJ battled. dr. j at the tail end of his career, magic AND bird in their prime, isiah thomas, a young barkley, akeem, drexler, the pistons when they were the bad boys, the lakers when they were showtime, the 90's knicks...i think you're forgetting a lot of talent out there, and that's the point. there's a huge difference between athleticism and talent/skill. |
Titus Ares
(101)
Artist Info
| 2:31:00 PM Friday, April 11, 2008
anyone can run down the court and dunk the ball. the players mj played against were more fundamentally sound versus the one kobe's up against. jordan was stronger and went to the hole with more determination and conviction. kobe flails his limbs at the slightest hint of contact, hoping to get to the line. |
Titus Ares
(101)
Artist Info
| 6:42:00 PM Friday, April 11, 2008
one more thing...don't forget how the nba toned down defense to "allow for a more free-flowing and entertaining style of basketball". basically, all the great on-the-ball defenders who made mj's life miserable were handcuffed because of this rule. that's why the season directly after, you had more than a few players with 30 ppg averages. not because they were great scorers, but because they exploited the rule and visited the stripe...sometimes as many times as 28 a game (i'm looking at YOU, kobe!). what was once an accomplishment attained by only the great scorers, was now being done by anyone who could and would throw their bodies in the lane and wait for the inevitable whistle. kobe scored more than 30 points in one game and took less than 8 shots. that's a shame and it tarnishes the 30ppg stat. mj had joe dumars, derek harper and an assortment of rough-and-tumble teams to fight through to get his. kobe has bruce bowen and his dirty-ass defense. think about it, how many wing players now are considered great defensively versus back when mj played. |
stephen christian
(402)
Artist Info
| 11:20:00 AM Saturday, April 12, 2008
i remember when soda was a nickel. |
Ed
(100)
Artist Info
| 1:17:00 PM Thursday, April 24, 2008
I agree about today's defense being easier. If you look at the comments @ the current Wiz vs Cavs series, everyone there is saying how plays are so much softer now. You can't even give a hard foul without flagrant being called. Any hard foul on Lebron is auto-flagrant. Remember when the Pistons and Knicks use to rough up Jordan consistently yet MJ still had the highest scoring average in the playoffs of all times.
Finally, for those that said today's players are better. Don't forget it is a 40 year old jordan who dropped 50 points vs the modern, more athletic player in 2003. Imagine what Jordan in his prime would've done with today's players. |
Titus Ares
(101)
Artist Info
| 1:51:00 PM Thursday, April 24, 2008
My sentiments exactly, Ed. The NBA now is filled with softies and whiners, and what constitutes a superstar nowadays is someone who is willing to get beat up and can shoot a high clip at the line. tony parker would never average 20 points in the 90's.
btw, the spurs are garbage. you see their hack-a-shaq in game 2? i mean, yeah, it's in the game, but so's flagrant fouling, but that doesn't mean you should do it if it gives your team an advantage. and manu is the biggest flopper of all time. i hope he flops on top of a rusty nail and gets lockjaw. |
GARVIN GAYNAIR
(9)
| 2:07:00 PM Thursday, April 24, 2008
JORDAN WAS WAY MORE SUCCESSFUL n winning rings , hit all the big shots when it came down to it....KOBE is a far more superior shooter from outside, but now with better teammates he wows us whith his nasty (in a good sense) passes. They both have the same swagger, which ppl say Kobe immitates Jordan, but who doesnt immitate JORDAN? lol everyone does in some shape n form.. JORDAN N KOBE ARE EQUAL IN MY EYES, NO OTHER PERSON OTHER THAN THOSE 2 WHO I WOULD WANT WITH THE BALL DOWN 1 WITH 5 SECONDS LEFT! RIGHT!
|
GARVIN GAYNAIR
(9)
| 2:11:00 PM Thursday, April 24, 2008
and to u guys that say KOBE DOESNT ELEVATE HIS TEAMMATES...I MEAN DO U THINK KOBE JUST LEARNED TO DROP DIMES OVER NIGHT! NO, HIS TEAMMATES AFTER SHAQ WERENT ABLE TO FINISH, BUT NOW THEY ARE AND KOBES THIRD LIFE HAS BEGUN.. HAHA BASKETBALL IS THE SHIT! AND I LOVE THIS GAME! |
Ed
(100)
Artist Info
| 12:01:00 PM Friday, April 25, 2008
Garvin, I see your pt. I think there's a difference between making your teammates better (elevate your teammates) and dropping dimes. It is easier to drop dimes when you have BETTER teammates around you. If I played on a team with Jordan, Magic, Bird, Shaq, I'm sure I'd have more assist than if I had played with my playground homies. The Lakers are a better team now with better players (Gasol). That doesn't necessarily mean Kobe had made them better. If you look at Jordan's career, he nutured Pippen and Grant as rookies into all stars. He never inherited an all-star like Gasol who was a ROY and best player on his original team. If anything, the Lakers success is more attributed to Mitch Kupchak (*gasp*) and his draft picks & trades. This is not to take anything away from Kobe. But bottom is this: CP3 has demonstrated in these playoffs he is the MVP of this season. And MJ has demonstrated in his career that he is the greatest of all time.
|
reggie wilson
(41)
| 1:28:00 PM Saturday, April 26, 2008
I swear Jordan fans are so insecure when it comes to Kobe Bryant it is pathetic. To build Jordan up they have to tear down Kobe. Ed how can you say Kobe doesn't make his teammates better. Just compare the first half of the season when Gasol was in Memphis to the 2nd half now that he is in LA. He FG percentage goes from 50.1% in Memphis up to 58.9 % in LA. Hmm coincidence? His assist, blocks, and steals are up. He is averaging the nearly the same amount of points fewer minutes. His turnovers and personal fouls are down also. So as good as Gasol was before coming to LA, he is that much better playing alongside of Kobe. Do you need more evidence? All of Kwame's Brown stats are down since going to Memphis. Field goal percentage, rebounds, assist, steals, and blocks are all down since getting traded to Memphis. Kwame best years statisically has been the one's in LA. Should I go on. Smush Parker best years was also in LA. He goes down to Miami and plays with DWade who supposely makes his teammates and what happens all his numbers drop. In fact the Heat dropped Parker during the season. Parker was a starting PG for the Lakers, but couldn't hold a spot on the worst team in Basketball. Look at ever team that made a big trade this and look how it made there teams worst. I thought Steve Nash made his teammates better? I though Shaq made his teammates better? What happened? I think MJ is the GOAT, but at the same time you still have to give Kobe credit for what his has done this year. He is not the same selfish player he was in his early days. |
Ed
(100)
Artist Info
| 5:28:00 PM Saturday, April 26, 2008
Reggie, it's possible that you are correct. But there's a little flaw in what you are saying because it is also possible that you are incorrect. For example, my stats would be better as a Laker than as a Grizzlie as well. Does that simply mean Kobe made me better? Or is it simply because I went to a better team, with better players overall. Obviously it is easier to play with better players with superstars than it is with a bunch of scrubs. But that doesn't mean Kobe himself made others better. Your evidence doesn't lead to one answer, but what you are saying is definitely possible.
Regarding Nash and O'Neal that is a different argument so you are putting apples with oranges here. Shaq is in the twighlight of his career and was a washout at Miami that people were shocked that Suns would risk such a trade. Nash does make his teammates better - if you don't believe that, I don't think you have any credit in on this topic. Imagine taking Nash away from the Suns, I don't think they would be anywhere near the caliber of team they are now. There are also two MVP's trophies in Nash's house that Kobe didn't win to justify this. Just because adding an old O'Neal who did not fit on this team means that Nash did not make his teammates better.
Finally, when did I not give Kobe credit for this year? I've consistenly said that Kobe has been the best player in the game today. It's just that #1. he's not the greatest of all time. MJ is. #2. he's not the MVP of this season, CP3 is. |
Ed
(100)
Artist Info
| 10:44:00 AM Thursday, June 19, 2008
I think the 2008 Finals has ended all debate about Jordan vs Kobe.
In the meantime, I want to give big ups to Garnett.
KG is the reason why we like to watch basketball.
A real basketball player isn't only about scoring a lot points, getting huge endorsement and get everyone to ooooh and aahhh.
A real basketball player is someone who plays hard every game, BE HUMBLE, help teammates to score, rebound the ball, plays team basketball, assist, block shots, play defense and most importantly motivate his teammates to win.
KG has all these.
Kobe has very little of these and most importantly, he likes to tear his teammates down to win.
Both approaches may work in terms of winning a championship. But that is why KG is genuinely loved and Kobe tends to be vilified.
|
Ryan Holler
(1145)
Moderator
Artist Info
| 1:08:00 AM Saturday, June 21, 2008
First let me say, MJ is and always has been my man. Okay...
Ed, your last two paragraphs are kinda weird.
Kobe appears to have grown tremendously this year. I know it's easy to "grow" in a fresh winning environment. But we must acknowledge that Kobe is far more mature than he used to be, and he has always been a leader in terms of showing teammates the kind of commitment it takes to play at the top of your game. I'm not a big fan of Kobe Bryant, but my respect for him as a player has grown more than I ever thought it would, and I don't like to see anyone unreasonably disparaged.
The reasons the Lakers lost are far more vast than the individual contributions of KB and KG. The biggest one of all is Celtics team defense.
There's no doubt Kobe is every bit the athlete that MJ was. But there's the obvious hardware discrepancy. And until Kobe has six rings or his career is at least close to over, this argument is a bit like counting chickens before they hatch. And though I'm not a big fan, I sincerely want to see Kobe at his best until he retires. I want solid statistics to compare once both of their careers are complete. Not that this debate will ever truly be settled, I just have little interest in finalizing it until it can rightly be done.
And lastly, Ed... once you reveal yourself as a Kobe hater, which in my opinion you did, you discredit your argument.
Just my 2ยข. |
