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Jordan vs Kobe - Who Is Better?
Last week, ESPN had an article on their front page by Jemele Hill. It is one of the worst articles I've ever read, not because I'm siding with any one side but rather because it was full of opinions that offered no facts or evidence. As a result, ESPN released another article this week, backed by Tex Winter - the creator of the Triangle Offense and someone who coached both Jordan and Kobe through their careers. |
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| 1:43:00 PM Friday, March 30, 2007
Last week, ESPN had an article on their front page by Jemele Hill. It is one of the worst articles I've ever read, not because I'm siding with any one side but rather because it was full of opinions that offered no facts or evidence. As a result, ESPN released another article this week, backed by Tex Winter - the creator of the Triangle Offense and someone who coached both Jordan and Kobe through their careers.
  | Nick Huber
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| 2:50:00 PM Friday, March 30, 2007
hmm interesting articles. Id have to say the magic of jordan was the way he made the players around him play, kobe is an amazing player but he doesnt elevate his teammates play. | Travis Peterson
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| 5:50:00 PM Friday, March 30, 2007
I agree with Nick. Kobe can score as much as he wants because he is an amazing player, but Michael won 6 rings because he had the ability to make his whole team better. He could take the big shot, or he could give it to someone else trusting that they would make it. And they would, because knowing that the best player in the game trusts you to make the game winner is a very motivating feeling. I don't think the Michael and Kobe comparison is even valid: in my opinion MJ is in his own league with Kobe a few steps down. | ade otabor
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| 10:45:00 PM Friday, March 30, 2007
"Kobe can score as much as he wants because he is an amazing player, but Michael won 6 rings because he had the ability to make his whole team better. He could take the big shot, or he could give it to someone else trusting that they would make it. And they would, because knowing that the best player in the game trusts you to make the game winner is a very motivating feeling. I don't think the Michael and Kobe comparison is even valid: in my opinion MJ is in his own league with Kobe a few steps down."
i can't really call it, jordan is the greatest as it stands right now but when is all said and done kobe is definitely on track to get that spot (as far as skill on the court)...
however, no player will EVER COME CLOSE to having the sort of impact on culture that jordan had and that is really why people will likely dismiss this comparison when it is all too valid, (as the hill article points out) people forget all the criticism jordan got before he actually won one, mix that in with him being the economic force and being the face of basketball worldwide for nearly a decade and most people refuse to entertain the argument that might be at least as good as jordan was at similar points in their careers... | johnny szabo
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| 5:10:00 AM Saturday, March 31, 2007
Jordan was in his own league, true. No dought he made his whole team better, but then again was able to score as much as he wanted to. Thats why he has 6 rings. Kinda a mixture of Wade and Kobe if you ask me. BUt think of it this way, what if Kobe was first and time would be the other way around, would we be discussing the same thing except saying that Kobe is in his own league. Hands down he's an amazing player, but why compare them? Everyone(in their right mind) wants to be themselvs, not someone else... | Joseph Privitt
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| 1:05:00 PM Saturday, March 31, 2007
When Kobe starts to make his fellow members on his team better and not ice them out only to chew them out later for not makeing a shot on a rare attempt. Talk to me.
When Kobe trains another player to stand with him through battle and not discourage them as Mike did with Pippen.Talk to me then.
When Kobe stopps smaking people in the face on Jumpers and complains about a foul on him. Talk to me then.
When Kobe fills the stat shit with more then just points and attemps. Talk to me then.
When kobe wins a championship as the team leader, just one. Talk to me then.
When Kobe stops trying to be like Mike. Talk to me then.
No disrespect to Kobe he is as close as you get to being a Micheal Jordan but his Airness he isnt. | Ryan Holler
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| 11:13:00 AM Sunday, April 08, 2007
Actually I think Jemele's article was as good as I've ever read in favor of Kobe. Those aren't just opinions she's offering. Those are legitimate points, albeit not measureable with statistics. And in regard to statistics, why discuss those? They speak for themselves. So to me, arguements like Jemele's are the most fun, because they reveal the passion people have for one player or the other. By the way, none of us should think there will ever be a resolution to this arguement.
But I disagree with Jemele on two points: One, I would argue that it's unfair to make the physical size and strength of the competition arguement. The fact is that winners like MJ and KB do exactly what it takes to stay above their foes. Michael's career spanned the period when the NBA went from lean and athletic physiques and playing styles to a more bulky physical era that was more rough and dirty that it is even today. Michael's body and playing style changed accordingly during that time. And I can assure you that MJ would have adjusted to today's game in whatever way was necessary to stay on top.
Two: She gives example of Michael being a poor teammate to Will Purdue and Steve Kerr. Jemele, there is a huge difference between backbiting in the lockerroom via the media and keeping a communication chill between yourself and your teammates (Kobe), and getting into fisticuffs with teammates during practice, at a moment when you're appropriately trying to create a environment comparable to that of a game in order to become a better team. Micheal didn't allow that stuff to spill out into the media. Kerr and Purdue still respect Mike today. Shaq ended up leaving the lakers. So that's not a good arguement to make if you're trying to score a point for Kobe. | Ryan Holler
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| 11:32:00 AM Sunday, April 08, 2007
Pippen: "Hey Mike, you think Kobe Bryant will ever win 6 rings?"
Michael: (facial expression shown below)
 | johnny szabo
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| 3:29:00 PM Sunday, April 08, 2007
Well he might know something.^^ | Tony Hardman
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| 10:41:00 PM Sunday, April 08, 2007
One of the things that bothers me about Kobe is that he doesn't really seem to know who HE is. Where MJ came in and was creative and intuitive in combination with his skills, leadership, drive and personality, Kobe is just running around, seemingly trying to emulate that. His attitude and cockiness just rubs me wrong and it is hard for me to respect him as a man, though I do respect him as a player in terms of his skills. For me, there will just never be a comparison. | reggie wilson
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| 4:12:00 PM Monday, April 09, 2007
I don't understand how people call Kobe cocky, but they call Jordan confident. Jordan was the most cocky player ever. Who else shoots a free throw with his eyes closed during a game, to me that screams arrogance. People act like Jordan invented the pump-fake, or the reverse lay-up. When Kobe does this he is trying to be like Jordan. I guess people forget that Dr. J and Elgin Baylor were doing these things before Jordan was even born. | Rich Benares
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| 7:08:00 PM Monday, April 09, 2007
^ maybe if you really knew why he shot a free throw with his eyes closed, you might not call it arrogance. MJ was simply joking around with Mutombo .. far from arrogance in my opinion. | Ryan Holler
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| 10:47:00 PM Monday, April 09, 2007
Reggie, Kobe does (or has done) things that, in my opinion, are bush league for a guy with his level of talent and knowledge of the history the game... things Jordan never would have done. Jordan never made gestures to an opposing crowd. Jordan didn't do things that essentially said "look at me," after he made big plays, like dusting off his shoulder after getting fouled on a made basket, or pulling the armhole of his jersey across his chest to show us how much heart he has. Jordan didn't need to show us how much heart he had. We saw it in his game, not his antics.
I'll admit that I see a whole lot of the same brilliance in Kobe's game. And I don't have a personal beef with Kobe. But there's a certain idea I hold of what a true superstar is supposed to act like. And to me that's an area in which Kobe fails to live up to Micheal's standard. I LOVE Kobe's game. It's the non-basketball things that Kobe does that work against him. They cause Kobe to suffer in the likeability department.
And Reggie, this discussion has nothing to do with pump fakes and reverse layups. We know those were around before Jordan. It's the STYLE of Jordan's game that Kobe emulates. Some criticize Kobe for that. I don't. It's hard to grow up watching Jordan, as KB did, and NOT emulate him. I would never criticize Kobe for that. | ade otabor
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| 10:50:00 PM Tuesday, April 10, 2007
it is all perception...it is a bit of an unfair comparison, in that self aggrandizement is much more pervasive in today's game. however even given that premise, are you really saying because kobe sometimes has "look at me" moments occasionally that degrades his standing as a player comparable to jordan? are you really saying mike never had these type of displays? and implying that should even be a factor? it is a different atmosphere around today's athlete, that imo no natter how good the next guy is, he won't capture the collective imagination or come anywhere close to jordan did...
"But there's a certain idea I hold of what a true superstar is supposed to act like. And to me that's an area in which Kobe fails to live up to Micheal's standard. I LOVE Kobe's game. It's the non-basketball things that Kobe does that work against him. They cause Kobe to suffer in the likability department."
in reality, that is what it is for many people; even before what did or did not happen in colorado. you can trace it back to the 3 air balls in the finals or the all star game where he blatantly challenged mike (and was schooled!) or maybe the tongue wagging mimicry, whatever the reason it usually has nothing to do with his game imo...i cite the parting of ways with shaq as a perfect example, the lakers organization made that decision not kobe. (just a thought: could anyone imagine a team with jordan and ewing in their primes really coexisting?)
the question of who is better is the wrong question, the better question would be are they comprable; and i should think the answer is yes... | reggie wilson
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| 1:31:00 AM Wednesday, April 11, 2007
I knew that was the reason he shot the free throw with his eyes closed. But why would you risk missing a free throw in a an actual GAME, over a little joke. That is arrogance to me because your telling the world I'm so good I don't have to see when I shoot and I can still make it.
Ryan I have seen times when Jordan has made "look at me plays" before. I can't count how many time I could read Jordan lips saying "He can't guard me" or "He can't F with me." Or what about that time he Jordan layup the ball up on Ewing in the playoffs, and Jordan screams at Ewing while he is on the ground. What about that. It just irritates me when people act like Jordan never did anything wrong. Or when Kobe does something, BIAS fans will come back and say Jordan would never do this or say that. I like MJ, but just because you guys grew up idolizing him and wanting to design his shoes doesn't mean he has never did anything wrong.
With that being said, we are just having a debate and if I offend or upset anyone any the process I apolgize in advance. | Rich Benares
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| 10:47:00 AM Wednesday, April 11, 2007
^ Reggie, I dont recall the actual score in the game when MJ did that, but im pretty sure that if hes joking around at the line. The Bulls are pretty much in command and little time left on the clock. See you might talk about everyones biased against Kobe, but you are pretty much doing the same thing to justify your arguments. Need to look at the overall picture bra.
Jordan screeming at Ewing? Well, do you even remember that series? The Knicks came into that series with the sole intention of being rough and rugged with the Bulls. The Knicks were like the Bad Boys version 2. MJ took a pretty good beating in the series so when you look at his actions in the overall context of the series...then you cant really say it was about arrogance.
Kobe, really ends up in a damned if you do damned if you dont situation. If he doesnt take over the game - people say - Well Jordan would have taken over and dominated. If he DOES take over - People say - Jordan would have gotten his teammates involved. Kobe along with the other NBA players that will be compared to MJ is in a no win situation.
Will there ever be a player with MJ caliber or better... of course! BUT it will take a good bit of luck to find that one person that not only has the talent, but also the charisma and the marketablity like Jordan did. Kobe may have a shot, but right now, theres way too many people that hate Kobe for that to happen. | Ryan Holler
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| 2:20:00 PM Wednesday, April 11, 2007
Man, this is a really good discussion. Rich, you make some great points. Ade too. You're right, today's game is different than the 80s and 90s in terms of the "look at me" stuff. I did gloss over that. But there are a whole lot of players who DON'T do that stuff (Spurs/Suns). And those who do still are somehow more likeable than Kobe. Garnett, for instance. Nobody beats his chest and woofs as much as him. But he's always been known as a big boisterous guy. That's part of his personality.
Reggie, true you could read Mike's lips utter the F-word on occasion when things got heated, but those moments were never displays for the crowd or camera, it was players talkin' sh!t to each other. There's a HUGE difference. Nobody's painting Jordan as a saint. It's just that he was so far greater than Kobe at managing his public persona. Everbody knows that. You're oversimplifying things and taking this discussion backward when you place me or anyone else into a Jodan-lover/Kobe-hater group. Don't categorize. People are backing up their arguements with great examples here.
And yes, this discussion has gotten away from who's a better pure player. In terms of all this off-court stuff, Kobe has already ruined his chance of ever being embraced by everyone the way Jordan was. Jordan was a master at controlling his public image. Kobe's just been known as a jackass for too long, I think, to ever redeem himself to the level of Jordan off-court. The unfortunate thing for Kobe is that all the off-court stuff will affect the way many regard him as a player in the future. For him to be WIDELY regarded as a better player than Mike, he's going to have to demolish all of Mike's career statistics. And that's still possible.
| reggie wilson
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| 3:03:00 PM Wednesday, April 11, 2007
Well I agree that Kobe will never be as likeable as Jordan was. But I would rather be a polarizing figure like Kobe where everybody has strong feelings toward me, than the "everybody like me" persona that Jordan has. To me it would be boring being like Mike.
I really don't think it is fair for Kobe to be compared to MJ, because you a finished career up against player that might have 8 years left in the tank. Alot of things can happen in 8 years, Jordan won 6 rings in 8 years. It just irriates me when people do compare the two, they always seem to bring Kobe's personal life into the argument and that has nothing to do with B-Ball.
And Rich I do remember that series. I know everything about Jordan, I use to be a huge Jordan fan and still am a fan but not huge anymore. It wasn't until Kobe went from a media darling to being pretty much exiled that I started to like Kobe. | Rich Benares
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| 4:19:00 PM Wednesday, April 11, 2007
Reggie, Its pretty unfortunate for Kobe that everytime he is compared to Jordan or actually anyone period his personal life is always mentioned. But thats the sad realty of life as a star in general, your personal life will always have a bearing on how people perceive you. You cannot fault anyone for looking beyond Kobes athletic ability when it comes to how they feel about him. In Jordans case, maybe it was the lack of coverage in his prime, or the lack of internet usage, but we hardly heard anything about his personal life. Other than the pictures we saw in his books, or in his videos. For all we knew Jordan was "perfect." Later on though we came to find out it wasn't always perfect, but by that time his legacy and his air of invincibilty was too tough to break.
Kobe as a player, to me, is the best the NBA has to offer now. A sweet shot and a killer instict. Maybe with a bit better marketing push we could see a change in the way people think. Only time will tell. | stephen christian
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| 5:50:00 PM Wednesday, April 11, 2007
kobe's in a pretty nice situation, really...how sweet must it be to be boo'd everytime you touch the ball, yet drop 47 and snatch a win on the road? it is a lousy comparison, regardless. if i'm paying to watch anyone play, it be kobe. | aviv maizlin
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| 7:00:00 PM Wednesday, April 11, 2007
michael jordan is by now the greatest basketball player of all times, maybe the best professional athlete ever!
kobe is a very good basketball player, MAYBE and only MAYBE the best in the world today!
do i need to say anything else? | Tony Hardman
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| 7:01:00 PM Wednesday, April 11, 2007
Some good points coming from both sides. Kobe is easily the best player in the league right now....but it doesn't change the fact that I don't like him.
-TH | Rich Benares
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| 7:49:00 PM Wednesday, April 11, 2007
Im pretty sure MJ had his fair share of haters too. I know he was always labeled as a ball hog, someone that couldnt help his team win anything at one point in his career.
One thing to wonder, if MJ played in this era of millions of sports related websites, 24hr Sport News Coverage, minute by minute tracking by blogs and papparazzi's. Would we have seen MJ in a different light? Would his past adultery have been discovered much sooner? Would his gambling have made significant buzz outside of the sports world? Who knows, but its really interesting to think about.
Tony the irony would be...If you ended up with the task of designing his next shoe heh. | ade otabor
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| 10:18:00 PM Wednesday, April 11, 2007
being from the windy i have always been a jordan fan (i contradictorily, hated the bulls; go figure!) and i have watched enough bulls games on wgn, so i scoff (scoff i say!!!) at the notion that jordan was not an arrogant player on the court. not overtly of course, but he definitely was arrogant; it was one of the things that people admired about his "persona" his swagger. i think most great players have this arrogance...
i have to admit i have pretty much always thought of kobe as somewhat corny, most everything he does seems calculated and contrived, he never really comes off as really being in the moment, i do not really know why i feel that way i just do. however, it does not effect my opinion that he is the best doing it right now as far as having the whole arsenal and has pretty much been having his way with the league for prolonged stretches for the past 3-4 seasons | Tony Hardman
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| 11:18:00 PM Wednesday, April 11, 2007
Ade: You nailed that perfectly. | reggie wilson
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| 12:33:00 AM Thursday, April 12, 2007
Well Kobe's arrogance and Jordan's arrogance I don't mind at all. I probably would be the sameway if I were that good. I don't like Damon Jones arrogance because I think he is a bum, and he has nothing to brag about.
Back on topic, I truly believe the reason why people say that what Kobe does is calculated or planned whatever comes from the media, especially ESPN. Alot of the same comments I here on this forum, are some of the same comments that are made on ESPN and from there it trickles down to the local sports network, down to your local newspaper,etc. But hey I may be wrong.
Rich I can understand where your coming from, but I just don't understand how cheating on your wife, or being a "rapist", has anything to do with basketball. For example, Rich if you were the greatest shoe designer in the world and nobody gave you credit for that because you liked to sky dive in your free time, would that make any sense. I just think its funny when people criticizes Kobe's moral shortcomings, knowing that they skeletons in their closet that may be far worst than cheating on your wife. | Rich Benares
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| 10:44:00 AM Thursday, April 12, 2007
Reggie, You cannot seriously compare sky diving to adultery and a "rape" charge? Are you serious bro... come on now! True, adultery and/or "rape" has nothing to do with basketball, but people will ALWAYS criticize Kobes moral shortcommings because he is a celebrity. In this society whether your an athlete, a musician, an actor, youre somewhat held in higher standard than everyone else. As a star, you are emulated by those that admire you, those that aspire to be in your shoes. That is why, fair or not, celebrities always have to be perfect in the publics eyes.
Speaking of skeletons in the closet... Ill make a bold statement. Everyone has criticized someone in their lives knowing that they themnselves have some pretty nasty skeletons in their closets as well.. human nature bro..
We are kinda getting away from the main topic..but this discussion is a damn nice one :)
| Ryan Holler
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| 11:59:00 AM Thursday, April 12, 2007
Ade, your last comments were spot-on.
But let's not create the illusion that media coverage during the Bulls' championship runs was so much different that it is today. That team was covered like rockstars. No one team has EVER gotten media attention like them. That goes along with the point I've been making. They, led by Michael, were masters at managing their flaws. They fought in practice, cheated on wives, and even ran off poor Horace Grant. But they NEVER let that stuff affect what happened on court. And that was mostly due Michael's ability to manage not only his but the Bulls' public image.
Regardless of who made the final personel decisions that broke up the Shaq/Kobe/Phil regime, the fate of that team was 100% in the hands of Kobe and Shaq. All they had to do was get over the personal crap and play ball. But it didn't happen. The team broke up and both of them acted like they didn't care. They had all the tools to eclipse the Bulls dynasty, but let personal problems take a higher priority than winning. To me that will always play into my comparison of Kobe and Micheal. | Ed
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| 1:17:00 PM Thursday, April 12, 2007
I'm not sure I can agree with "ran off poor horace grant" part. They didn't run him off. They wanted him. But Horace wanted more $ and fame. He didn't want to be 3rd fiddle nobody but rather an all-star. He was developing at very consistent outside shot at that point and left for Orlando for the $ and the promise of a bigger role in the offense. | Ian Gale
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| 1:57:00 PM Thursday, April 12, 2007
I thought this topic was about basketball skills and on-court achievements, but somehow it has turned into the 'Kobe's morality, popularity and public persona vs Jordan's' forum. This has nothing to do with the game of basketball.
Bear in mind that if Jordan did most of the things he did back in the day in today's NBA (the gambling, cheating on his wife, lobbying for the firing of Doug Collins) he would be just as villified by the media as Kobe is. Every move a pro athlete makes these days is chronicled by the media. Albeit, that's the price of fame.
Truth is, i'm one of the biggest Jordan fans u'll ever meet, but the real argument here should be who would be better in their prime:
1989/90 MJ vs 2006/07 KB?
I would give Jordan the advantage simply for the fact that he always seemed to have a mental edge over his opponents. MJ actually struck fear into his opponents whenever he stepped onto the floor. I don't think Kobe has that same mental advantage. |
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