Sal Galasso (4)
Artist Info
| 10:53:00 PM Monday, May 26, 2008
 |
johnny szabo (890 )
Artist Info
| 3:10:00 PM Wednesday, May 28, 2008
Sal, gotta start somewhere. Ideas will come up a lot better if you get the basic shape of the foot right. Sketch your shoe, or download some templates from the interent. MAke sketches of your foot. |
archie tolentino (210 )
Artist Info
| 11:28:00 PM Friday, May 30, 2008
yeah Sal, i assume you draw manually, you could use templates off the internet, or even maybe pictures from magazines, place paper over it, then familiarize your hand with the general shape of the shoe, you don't have to get it right all the time though, good luck! keep us posted about your sketches. |
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 11:12:00 PM Sunday, June 08, 2008
Made this prety quick. Took about an hour. I rushed so I wouldn't miss Celtics-Lakersd tip off.
 |
archie tolentino (210 )
Artist Info
| 2:49:00 AM Tuesday, June 10, 2008
 |
Matt Unterfranz (20)
Artist Info
| 9:51:00 AM Tuesday, June 10, 2008
any criticism is appreciated. Unfortunately, with summer school, I wasn't able to finish all the details.
 |
Matt Unterfranz (20)
Artist Info
| 9:53:00 AM Tuesday, June 10, 2008
sorry, does anybody know how i can make my images smaller when i post them? my bad for taking up all that space. |
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 9:20:00 PM Tuesday, June 10, 2008
Archie I like the concept. I love shoes with that gold/brown colorway.
Matt- If you have photoshop you can go to the program then to edit image size and set it from there. You could also use a website like photobucket or tinypic. |
archie tolentino (210 )
Artist Info
| 9:32:00 PM Tuesday, June 10, 2008
@John
thanks! I was thinking of something more of a straw mat material on the side, more summer/casual looking, but I also like your gold/brown colorway idea, it makes the shoe feel more upscale. thanks for the comments! i appreciate for taking time. anymore ideas? |
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 9:52:00 PM Tuesday, June 10, 2008
I see what you mean with the mat and summer. Keep at it. The shoe is casual like your intent but flashy enough to turn some heads. |
archie tolentino (210 )
Artist Info
| 1:20:00 AM Wednesday, June 11, 2008
@John
wow.. thanks for the kind words... will work on a few more options... thanks! |
johnny szabo (890 )
Artist Info
| 1:51:00 PM Thursday, June 12, 2008
NIce shoe Archie.
JOhn, gotta agree cant miss the NBA finals:D |
archie tolentino (210 )
Artist Info
| 7:55:00 PM Thursday, June 12, 2008
hmmm... guys, i'm having a hard time interpreting the designs and commenting on them, maybe we should indicate the inspiration behind the shoe, although this is a "sketch" workshop, it wouldn't hurt to also comment on the design, what do you guys think?
@john
i'd like to know the concept behind your sketch, zen? |
archie tolentino (210 )
Artist Info
| 7:58:00 PM Thursday, June 12, 2008
@johnny
thanks! |
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 7:49:00 AM Friday, June 13, 2008
yeah I threw it together guick like i said. My general idea was one lockdown strap. And I took color ques etc. from Zens design. Johnny I hope you didn't miss the Finals last night! |
archie tolentino (210 )
Artist Info
| 9:43:00 AM Sunday, June 15, 2008
@john
wow, that's kinda flattering for your work to be an inspiration for someone elses... well.. Zen is a great designer... anymore drawings? |
archie tolentino (210 )
Artist Info
| 10:22:00 AM Sunday, June 15, 2008
an adidas concept... bubbled bounce... hehe
 |
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 4:47:00 PM Sunday, June 15, 2008
Archie your designs are great. Clean them up and enter them in a contest already:) I'm working on a smooth sleek looking shoe, what if for a strap i used magnets would that work? I feel that velcro may take away from its design. |
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 5:57:00 PM Sunday, June 15, 2008
what i'm talking about...
 |
archie tolentino (210 )
Artist Info
| 7:07:00 PM Sunday, June 15, 2008
@John
Hahaha.. thanks, I have submitted some here, well, I have yet to be a finalist, that's the problem, I can doodle, but loose interest in a design quickly, too quick to clean it up, either that or I move on to do something else ... Thanks John!... Magnets? Didn't a Jordan have magnets? I'm lost for what edition it is. In my opinion, the problems I see is primarily the tensile resistance, as quick as they can fasten, it is also as quick as they can get loose. I suggest having a number of magnets placed in opposing faces/ different axes in the different faces of the shoe to counteract the tension, also consider the shape of the magnets in relation to where the shoe bends in natural movement, folds in the upper material could loosen the magnets, just my two cents... if you ask between velco and magnets, i'll go with velcro, simpler and i guess cheaper, but you're doing a concept shoe, so go with whatever you like :D good luck! |
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 12:19:00 PM Friday, June 20, 2008
I realy want to improve on this for the next theme. Please comment.<br><img width=400 src="http://www.kicksguide.com/images/upload/13441_Under%20Armour%20copy.jpg"> |
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 12:21:00 PM Friday, June 20, 2008
 |
Rich Benares (644 )
| 12:36:00 PM Friday, June 20, 2008
John: Those straps are way too small. They wouldnt be able to take a lot of the stress that would be put on them. It would only cause the strap to either break or continuosly come loose from the velcro.
Also a brief description of what your intending to do would be good so that we know what your trying to do from either a material or a technological stand point.
R1ch |
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 1:45:00 PM Friday, June 20, 2008
First off thanks for the comments. I'll try to fix the straps. I hope this pic helps you with the material/tech piont of view.
 |
archie tolentino (210 )
Artist Info
| 10:50:00 PM Friday, June 20, 2008
@John
Hey John, a suggestion, try to sketch over the actual armourlastic shocks, you wouldn't want your shoes to be recognized as another brand, just a suggestion, sketch sketch sketch! |
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 11:01:00 AM Saturday, June 21, 2008
Will Do! Thanks |
johnny szabo (890 )
Artist Info
| 3:00:00 AM Sunday, June 22, 2008
Archie, how much do you work with one of those renderings? HOw much with markers and with PS? |
archie tolentino (210 )
Artist Info
| 6:05:00 AM Sunday, June 22, 2008
@Johnny
I used to draw designs manually with pencil and paper, then scan, then color the rendering on PS. Now I do it all on the computer. I got myself a pentablet (saved up a long time and its well worth it). I draw shoes on Corel Painter then quick rendering with the airbrush. You could also do it on PS but I like the option of other coloring mediums on Painter. I can't seem to find a copy of Sketchbook here, so I got Painter instead, does the job well. I hope I answered your question. |
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 1:20:00 PM Wednesday, June 25, 2008
Some quick work, just working on opposite contrasts. On this i just used prisma markers, a white pencil, and a black pen. Took about an hour. What do you all think?
 |
archie tolentino (210 )
Artist Info
| 1:51:00 AM Thursday, June 26, 2008
@ john
the general shape of the shoe looks... fragmented, for a lack of the word. The overall massing looks bulky and ununified, predominantly on the achiles/heel side. I suggest you view works from other designers, try to study the lines and strokes of their designs. Rendering wise, I can assume that you invested quite an amount of time and judging from your other works, you definetly improved! Add a little toning and shading and your work will surely pop-out. Hope this helps! See you around! |
Luke Mcconnie (38)
Artist Info
| 2:52:00 AM Thursday, June 26, 2008
John, I'd also suggest using a template for the Nike swoosh, it will make the overall design look more professional! |
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 12:47:00 PM Thursday, June 26, 2008
I understand all your comments (thanks 4 making them) becuase once posting i noticed them better myself. I totaly agree with it seeming a little bulky and how the Nike logo is a bit off. I'll keep at it and show you some more sketches soon enough. |
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 10:34:00 AM Monday, July 14, 2008
A shoe i've been brainstorming for the Olympic theme. The body is inspired by the bird nest stadium. The bumps on the strap inspired by the jade bi. (They used the bi as insperation for the medals.) The design for the air unit in the sole was inspired the Chinese characters. On the back of the shoe there is a pull tab inspired from the design on top of the gold medal. there is a transparent sole to represent the water that surounds the bird nest. I'm haveing trouble on how to show it is transparent in my rendering. So as usual comments and pionters are always greatly appreciated.
 |
Ben Adams-Keane (184 )
Artist Info
| 10:53:00 AM Monday, July 14, 2008
John: Nice work. I like the upper-pattern and the use of inspiration. I think the size of the "N" could be brought down a little bit, and I think the midsole could probably benefit from being thickened in the forefoot, although if you want it to be as it is, I don't think it's a big problem. Just my opinion.
As for making things look transparent, in your case, I would suggest extending the air unit down into the outsole area, so that it looks like it's "behind" the outsole. Then, go over that with a white highlights in a few places. That usually works for me when I'm trying to get a transparent look.
You could also use that technique without extending the air bubble down, but at least with my skill set, it's much more difficult to tell that the material is transparent if you can't see something behind it. |
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 11:26:00 AM Monday, July 14, 2008
Thanks for the comments. Thats what i started to think with the transparent. I think that beefing up the midsole will also help it to be easier to shrink the "N". I needed somebody elses opinion...Shouldn't you be rubing elbows at Nike right about now? Just kiding. I'll post more pics today. I also got an easy lace sytem for this aswell. Show that soon enough. |
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 5:27:00 PM Monday, July 14, 2008
The laceing sytem and a few insperation pics. My purpose for the shoe is a quick, easy, comfortable shoe. I wanted the Olympic competitors to be able to rest without much hassle after a long day.
 |
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 10:09:00 PM Monday, July 14, 2008
I bulked up the midsole and think i shrunk the "N" enough. I went looking for an example for the transparent and I noticed NB didn't have any so I droped the transparent idea for some tech, Actevia and Abzorb. It still needs some work and I hope you guys can help. |
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 1:11:00 PM Tuesday, July 15, 2008
Sorry for the double post and takeing over the thread.
 |
Matt Unterfranz (20)
Artist Info
| 5:32:00 PM Thursday, July 24, 2008
I'm in the early stages, but I would appreciate any advice before I move on with this project. Thanks a lot. I hope everyone's having a good summer.
 |
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 7:44:00 PM Thursday, July 24, 2008
Good concept so far. Your proportions need work. You did a good job coloring. Remember proportions are very important. Maybe trace correct proportions so your hand gets used to the shape. I'm no pro but i hope i could help. |
Rich Benares (644 )
| 7:54:00 PM Thursday, July 24, 2008
Remember fellas: Shoes are in 3D. I would highly suggest getting acustomed to designing a shoe as a 3d object than creating a 2D piece suitable for a coloring book page.
Matt: Your proportions are a bit off. I would suggest that you might want to reduce your time coloring/rendering and concentrate more on shape and functionality.
This is a recording, since no one ever listens lol
|
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 9:45:00 PM Thursday, July 24, 2008
"This is a recording" That got a few laughs. Here is my first photoshop rendering. I did this for the NikeTalk Drc: Pony Moss 2. It needs some work and sorry for the poor resolution. Oh and congrats on the mod upgrade Rich.
 |
Rich Benares (644 )
| 12:00:00 AM Friday, July 25, 2008
Im on NT and all this time I cannot figure out what DRC means! lol
Anyways. Thanks John! Ill wield the power well ( I hope )
Care to elaborate more about your shoe? Seems a bit too heavy for a WR shoe. Then again, when does Moss ever run full speed anyways?
|
Ryan Holler (1145 ) Moderator
Artist Info
| 12:46:00 AM Friday, July 25, 2008
Yes, Rich. Congrats on the upgrade. I welcome you to the ranks of the all powerful. Mwah-ah-aaaaah!
Matt, Rich makes some good points in regard to priority. However, don't think there's anything wrong with coloring your shoe. It's a worthwhile endeavor. Just know that when you post it here, most experienced designers are going to evaluate proportion and line first, everything else second.
John, your proportions are a little better and your line quality is very good. It's just too stubby. A foot is more slender and long. A couple more positive points are that the styling of your design is pretty consistent with where Pony is going these days, and this design (proportions corrected, of course) is something in which I could easily see Moss step out. I'm not too fond of the heel midsole. Good job otherwise, though. |
Ryan Holler (1145 ) Moderator
Artist Info
| 12:56:00 AM Friday, July 25, 2008
And to both of you guys, there's really no excuse for bad proportions if you've been around here for as long as I think you have (forgive me if I'm wrong). It has been stressed aplenty. All you have to do is trace your outline from a picture of a real shoe. Also, this template has been posted multiple times in various threads here at KG. It was first offered to us by Jason Mayden, at Jordan Brand. Please print it, and make use of it...
 |
Rich Benares (644 )
| 1:56:00 AM Friday, July 25, 2008
Yes, Ryan youre right. There is nothing wrong with coloring your designs. I guess I just get frustrated, when I can tell some artists spent way too long on coloring and rendering, when the lines, proportions are incomplete or off. |
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 8:41:00 AM Friday, July 25, 2008
The 1 2 punch of mod comments. I'll try to fix the stuby-ness. I had sketched a few other ideas for the heel midsole and i'll probably choose from one of them to fix up that problem. I'll get an updated render up soon enough. As for my proportions yesterday i thought it would work but haveing it pionted out i notice it seems a little bulky, fat,stubby or whatever you want to call it. Thanks agian. |
Ryan Holler (1145 ) Moderator
Artist Info
| 11:57:00 AM Friday, July 25, 2008
 |
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 12:10:00 PM Friday, July 25, 2008
Ryan i know that is a prety quick draw but i like it. Do you plan on going further with the design and entering it? I like what you've done with the triple eyelets and midsole. The on thing I'm not crazy about is how the perfs just stop on the toe. Can you shed some light on that? Overall great shoe that I can see Randy "running" in during traing camp. |
Ryan Holler (1145 ) Moderator
Artist Info
| 12:20:00 PM Friday, July 25, 2008
No, dude! I was just revising YOUR design! |
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 12:33:00 PM Friday, July 25, 2008
Well hmmm... thought it looked familier. I'm doing my own revisions right now. Still is a nice shoe though Ryan! |
Ryan Holler (1145 ) Moderator
Artist Info
| 1:01:00 PM Friday, July 25, 2008
I do that often when I see you guys post good ideas that are out of proportion or I feel might need a tweak or two. I usually do it just to satisfy my own curiosity. I just never marker them up or post them here. If there's anything you like about my revision take it and run with it.
As for the strategic perfing on the toe... I'm just keeping the perfs out of the area that needs to flex the most and provide more support. I'm glad you noticed it and brought it up. I'm not changing it. :) |
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 1:31:00 PM Friday, July 25, 2008
My rebutal. I did it before reading your comment about the perfs above. About an hour. Its a quickie. As for proportions a mostly traced the basic shape of your shoe.
 |
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 5:03:00 PM Friday, July 25, 2008
If first you don't succeed. I changed things up a bit. I tried to pay more attention to proportions. On this i realy didn't care about the coloring and how that part of the shoe turned out. How are my lines and proportions?
 |
Brian Moughty (378 )
| 5:50:00 PM Friday, July 25, 2008
DRC= DESIGNER ROLL CALL |
Rich Benares (644 )
| 10:31:00 PM Friday, July 25, 2008
^ Thanks B! Now I know! lol |
Matt Unterfranz (20)
Artist Info
| 4:32:00 PM Sunday, July 27, 2008
went back to the drawing board. I feel you guys with the coloring thing. Sometimes I just get excited and carried away. Anymore advice you guys have I would appreciate.
 |
Matt Unterfranz (20)
Artist Info
| 4:32:00 PM Sunday, July 27, 2008
 |
archie tolentino (210 )
Artist Info
| 12:56:00 AM Tuesday, July 29, 2008
whoa.. its been a crazy two weeks post-board exams! its good to back...
@John
being busy again I see... moving forward my friend, your moving forward...it's great to see that!
@Matt
midsole-outsole needs work... it's good to see your considering the technology... but as Rich had told me, its also good to put in more "personal" stuff to the design, i'm learning that too myself, hopefully I get to just in time.
@Rich
thanks for the suggestions! it had changed my point of view in design, I was too concerned about something that works that I forget to incorporate the "story" behind the design. thanks for the time man! and so I see you've gone big time! hahaha...
@everyone
lets keep supporting the site! comment, post and rate the designs! for the love of the game y'all.. for the love of the game.
deadline's comin' in already... gotta get to work!
|
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 4:20:00 PM Friday, August 01, 2008
Thanks "@"rchie. I got a question you mentioned adding "personal" stuff towards Matt, what do you mean? |
archie tolentino (210 )
Artist Info
| 8:03:00 PM Friday, August 01, 2008
Hey John!
hahaha... Wh@ i mean is putting in some personal qualities of your client to the design, something that you could relate the intended user directly to your product, and as Rich suggested, you can be as silly as you want. As for myself, I try to think of a design that works right away, im too serious or technology heavy that the basic inspiration tends to be secondary or sometimes unseen in the final draft. I'm trying to be more silly now, more basic. I'm gonna wear a clown's nose to work. hahaha... |
Rich Benares (644 )
| 8:21:00 PM Friday, August 01, 2008
There is nothing wrong with being tech heavy, but if you are designing a signature shoe, it should have elements of that persons persona.
For instance Randy Moss. He recently got into Auto Racing. Well, could gather inspiration from a racing harness to come up with a new strap? What music does he like? Jazz? Is he a Kenny G ( LOL ) Fan? Maybe you can get inspiration from a mouth piece of an alto sax to design the tounge?
To expand on what Archie is saying about being silly. Yeah man have fun with it! lol You never know where your next inspiration will come from!
R1ch
|
Rich Benares (644 )
| 12:10:00 AM Saturday, August 02, 2008
like...LOL dont ask..
 |
archie tolentino (210 )
Artist Info
| 4:22:00 AM Saturday, August 02, 2008
hahaha... now that's a lunar walker.. haha.. |
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 10:40:00 AM Saturday, August 02, 2008
Thanks for sheding a little light on that for me. I try to do that when i draw. Still got to keep improveing and every little "secret" helps.
Rich- that one should have just stayed at NT! lol. Wearing those clown shoes to work everyday should definatly help you stay silly. |
archie tolentino (210 )
Artist Info
| 10:39:00 PM Sunday, August 03, 2008
hey that's what this site is about, helping each other out. Let's stay constructive! |
archie tolentino (210 )
Artist Info
| 1:04:00 PM Tuesday, August 12, 2008
did some pencil work... help me out...
 |
John Deal (347 )
Artist Info
| 10:51:00 PM Tuesday, August 12, 2008
@rchie I think those are nice sketches. I don't like the jagged bottom but i understand they're just sketches. If your haveing trouble making a choice on witch one to progress with why not combine the two ideas? Just a thought, what is the direction or purpose of the shoe? Casual? Nice work,glad to see you cranking out designs now that you've finished up school. I have quite a few sketches myself that ill try to get up soon. |
archie tolentino (210 )
Artist Info
| 6:47:00 AM Wednesday, August 13, 2008
John De@l, that was forced.. hehe
combining the two? thats a great idea, I never thought of that, I kind of move on from one shoe design to another, thanks for bringing that up!
actually I finished school 2 yrs ago and I worked as an apprentice architect after that, I just passed the architecture licensure exams, that's why I hit the books hard again these last 2 months.
I'd like to see some of yours, we'll be waiting..
meanwhile, I've been reading a few about staple design, it got me wondering...
 |
Tony Hardman (850 ) Moderator
Artist Info
| 11:44:00 AM Wednesday, August 13, 2008
VERY nice, Archie! |
archie tolentino (210 )
Artist Info
| 12:32:00 PM Wednesday, August 13, 2008
Thanks Mr.TH! that means a lot! |
Rich Benares (644 )
| 10:47:00 PM Thursday, August 14, 2008
Archie, GOOD JOB man! Very nice indeed!!! As I have told you before, I love your line quality in your sketches...Just fix the swoosh ;) |
Tony Hardman (850 ) Moderator
Artist Info
| 5:00:00 AM Friday, August 15, 2008
Archie~ Yes. Rich is spot on. The swoosh is smashed a bit and your collar opening needs to be wider. The apex of a running shoe should be directly above the arch =) |
archie tolentino (210 )
Artist Info
| 12:33:00 PM Friday, August 15, 2008
o.. yes.. I see... I can see that now... hahaha.. been to caught up with the separate elements of the shoe, I forgot the most obvious things! Thanks for reminding me.
Mr. Rich, yes, the swoosh looks bootlegged, hehe..
Mr. TH, I see what you mean, I'll keep that in mind the next time, thanks for taking time.
I'm being moderated! haha. will work on it more! |
johnny szabo (890 )
Artist Info
| 7:25:00 AM Thursday, August 21, 2008
Heres a sketch/rendering, some feedback would be appreciated!
 |
Dongwoo Shin (13)
Artist Info
| 5:38:00 AM Friday, August 22, 2008
|
Dongwoo Shin (13)
Artist Info
| 5:41:00 AM Friday, August 22, 2008
How am I doing? I have so little information about sneaker design in my country and I would like to learn from YOU ALL!! Please give me any feedbacks that will help! Thank you so much!
And thnks a lot to Tony Harman! He helped me a lot!
 |
archie tolentino (210 )
Artist Info
| 11:24:00 PM Friday, August 22, 2008
Shin
nice work! looks inspired by those nike prestos... i like the flow of the lines... |
johnny szabo (890 )
Artist Info
| 1:41:00 PM Sunday, August 24, 2008
Another
 |
Dongwoo Shin (13)
Artist Info
| 9:55:00 PM Sunday, August 24, 2008
Thank you Archie! I love Presto, but I didn't get the inspiration from it, I got it from Air Max 180. But anyways, thanks alot for your comments, I really like your designs and pencil work out there! they are fantastic! |
archie tolentino (210 )
Artist Info
| 10:24:00 AM Monday, August 25, 2008
Shin
Yes, yes I see it now! The profile of the heel is similar to the 180, thanks for clearing that up! It really looks light and comfy!
Thanks! Just doing what everyone else this side of the web is doing. Thanks again! |
archie tolentino (210 )
Artist Info
| 11:00:00 AM Monday, August 25, 2008
Johnny
Improving man! Just a thought, I'm really bothered about the thickness of the sole, when you draw, try to imagine how the shoe would look like if you cut it in half along the long side of the foot. Do you have enough sole thickness? Or is a thumbtack gonna punch through? More importantly does the thickness give enough impact support and resistance, you'll need 'em space if you're into full length air's! Keep it up! You're improving! |
David Othie (29)
Artist Info
| 8:51:00 PM Friday, September 05, 2008
 |
Doc He (31)
Artist Info
| 5:01:00 AM Thursday, September 18, 2008
David,your Hyperdunk 09 is really coool!!!seems only a little heavy.Here's my PONY JEEP,just sketch~
 |
robert luo (3)
Artist Info
| 10:54:00 PM Tuesday, September 23, 2008
this is my first time here.please give me advice
 |
mark kokavec (2)
| 10:08:00 AM Thursday, September 25, 2008
These sketches are pretty good. I especially like the red line proportion guideline that Ryan Holler posted. |
Juan Pozo (14)
| 8:15:00 PM Wednesday, October 01, 2008
Huarache design i did....
[IMG]http://i38.tinypic.com/6j0av8.jpg[/IMG] |
Juan Pozo (14)
| 8:16:00 PM Wednesday, October 01, 2008
<a href="http://tinypic.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i38.tinypic.com/6j0av8.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"></a> |
Juan Pozo (14)
| 8:17:00 PM Wednesday, October 01, 2008
sorry guys....trying to get the pic to show.....
http://i38.tinypic.com/6j0av8.jpg
|
Gabriel Smith (24)
Artist Info
| 10:49:00 PM Wednesday, October 01, 2008
Could anyone let me know what the next inspiration is and when the sketch is due? I just found out about this website and am enraged since i've been designing shoes for years and am still pushing myself hard to blow myself away with shoe designs.
 |